Why Jokowi? Anies Baswedan talks to Rappler

JAKARTA, Indonesia – Rappler’s Maria Ressa sits down with president of Jakarta’s Paramadina University and chairman of Indonesia Mengajar (Teach Indonesia), Anies Baswedan

Anies is known for harnessing grassroots support for education, and he set aside his own political ambitions to help find the right leader. He  talks about the need for change in Indonesia and why Jokowi is the answer. (READ: Jokowi: Break from the past)

 

MARIA RESSA: Hello and welcome. My name is Maria Ressa. We are sitting with Anies Baswedan, he’s the spokesman for the Jokowi campaign, in a very tight election race in Indonesia. Thank you so much, Anies, for speaking with us.

So, simple question: Why Jokowi?

ANIES BASWEDAN: We need someone new to promote change of so many government projects, so many government agendas that has been there for many many years and much of the problem is not on the idea, on the plan.. but in the implementations. We need someone who is strong on the implementation side of a policy. Jokowi was a successful mayor in Solo, Indonesia and elected governor of Jakarta and in both places he had shown his strength on the implementation side of any good ideas. Now, Indonesia is a big country. We have more than 500 districts, 34 provinces – stretched like from London to Ankara. It’s just huge. Part of the problem in the center of government is policy implementation – how do we coordinate all of this? Therefore, someone with experience as mayor, as governor knows exactly how to deal with local challenges in implementing national policy agenda. That’s why Jokowi is the right candidate for this.

MARIA RESSA: There seems to be no doubt that he is a good COO but can he be CEO? Does he have the vision to take the operations knowledge he has, that’s a question for ASEAN, does he have a vision for Indonesia, the region, the world?

ANIES BASWEDAN: Yes he does. But the challenge is he has not – his idea hasn’t been exposed much. He was a governor, he was a mayor, unlike the other candidate, he were not in any position in government and he has been actively campaigning for the past 5 years. And that makes people aware of Prabowo’s visions. But Jokowi was not a candidate for president until last March. Therefore our exposure to his idea is very brief compared to Prabowo. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have any idea. In fact, I must say he was brought up in a decent family, very grassroot, and the perspective that he is bringing into the equation is completely different. And I think the visions would be different than the traditional approach. In seeing Indonesia, the visions of Indonesia is from the perspective of those who are common Indonesians.

MARIA RESSA: He’s seen as a complete break from the past, from the New Order. Is that correct, and how would he work with the people who are used to how the government used to be run?

ANIES BASWEDAN: Well, we’ll have to adjust. We need to change. Corruption, bad governance have been part of our daily process here. And we need a wake-up call. And we need to change a country as important as Indonesia in order to be part of the global community, part of the global economy. We need to have good governance in our system. Without good governance, you’re not going to have a good performing government for the people and also being part of the world. Now, the world is comparing countries to one another. Not only this as an economy, not only this as human capital, but it’s also based on its integrity. This requires change, and this requires someone who’s clean. And at the very top has no burden whatsoever to change, to push for change and also to be an example of everyone who is working for the government and for the general people. And this is also why I mention that Jokowi is interesting. Our politics hasn’t been seen in a positive way… Democracies across the globe is the.. the pillars is always trust. Unlike in authoritatian regimes the pillar is fear. Without fear, those authoritarian regimes couldn’t survive. In a democracy it’s trust. But trust is also the part that is deteriorated. You go to Europe, you go to North America.. trust in government decline. Trust in democracy decline. We need to restore trust. And in order to restore trust, you get someone trustworthy. Why? Because that individual symbolizes the hope that we can change. He may not able to change everything by himself but it symbolize the hope for change. For Indonesia, this is also very important. Our constitution says that everyone has equal rights in this country and they are equal before the law. Imagine, someone who grew up from a very common Indonesian family went to school just like any other Indonesians. Graduated, worked hard, established a small business, merged with an exporter, become a mayor, and one day became president of Indonesia. What does it translate into? It translates into inspiration, with more than 16 million families across the country. Parents can say to their children, don’t worry about politics. Look, if you study hard, if you work hard, you can be like him. That has been rare. When I grewup, I grew up with an institution that taught me, “Anies, read this story, read that story of the biography I read.. more leaders.” And our leaders, all of them, were  by professions they are politicians. Today, we look around, no parents will tell their children to read the lives of… why? Because nobody likes the new politicians given the politics of today. So Jokowi is like what you said, it brings a different perspective about politics and it’s not going to be him only. People who are surrounding him. People who are with him. People who are going to work together. These people, individuals, who will make the country proud, you know we have clean good guy with us and we allow them to lead. We are mature Asians.

MARIA RESSA: Given this, the history of Indonesian democracy from 1998 til now, on Wednesday, what is at stake in these votes?

ANIES BASWEDAN: The past 16 years after reform, big agendas were there. If we divided into three area – the economy, politics and democracy, and rule of law – our economy is doing ok. Our politics and democracy are doing ok. Look around, we’re doing good. But that third one – rule of law. We have a serious problem. And rule of law is… it’s had a serious impact in our economy and on our democracy and politics, we need leaders that can ensure the rule of law in this country, who can ensure that there’s a law enforcement on all aspects in this country. That’s what’s at stake. So after 16 years of reform… we need someone that can make breakthrough. We need someone who can… push things that hasn’t been able to be pushed. There’s so many interest groups that prevent good reforms to take place. If the president and vice president is part of the status quo how could we promote change? We need someone who is not part of this. We need someone who hasn’t been part of this. Or at least, if that part of the past was associated with breakthrough, like Jusuf Kalla. Jusuf Kalla is not someone new… the runningmate of Jokowi. He was a vice president. But even when he was vice president he was always associated with thinking outside the box, with actions rather different than the common approach of the bureaucrats. He’s always making breakthrough. So that’s the type of leaders you need. Why is it at stake? Democracy needs to deliver. Democracy needs to deliver prosperity, justice… that’s very clear. Without justice and prosperity how could we attain democracy? It’s the eye on the people, we have this new system because we want it… justice and prosperity. And that’s what at stake in these elections.

MARIA RESSA: What are Indonesians looking for? I mean, it’s surprising that the reinvention of Prabowo and the focus on “tegas.” Are Indonesians listening to the message? What are they looking for come Wednesday?

ANIES BASWEDAN: When you said tegas – firm – that is exactly in the past 16 years things has not been moving well. Because there is no firmness in the decision. And that’s why we need someone who’s firm. And firm is different than having a military background. For the past 10 years we’ve had a president with a military background. But he has not been associated with firmness. We had Jusuf Kalla, serving in his first term, who has always been associated with firmness even though he was not the military. He was the civilian. He was a businessman. So the image of firmness that is now emerging with Prabowo, it’s an interesting packaging. The challenge is, and I’ve been saying this to voters from both sides, compare 3-5 decisions which was decided with firmness. It’s not an ad on TV that makes you think someone is firm in making decisions. Look at 5 decisions and then you decide which one is firm. That’s my answer to this, so yes – but on the other hand, the people’s also hoping to see someone who understand the needs of the people… not a perceived need of a people. And Jokowi is interesting in this aspect. His prospective is always from the citizens’ point of view instead of a policymaker’s point of view. And that forces those who are helping be it advisor, or bureaucrat to change the way they approach how policy is being made.

MARIA RESSA: Analysts say this campaign was actually Jokowi’s to lose and he ran a relatively new brand, a relatively weak and lackluster campaign. Is that correct? Lackluster – not as inspirational as the message you are giving now that in many instances part of Prabowo’s momentum in this last month came from the weaknesses of the Jokowi campaign. Is that correct? What did you do right, what did you do wrong?

ANIES BASWEDAN: Part of the challenge in our system is we have only six weeks to campaign. And this is the challenge in our system – we had about a year for a candidate running for the House of Representatives to campaign. but only six weeks for the candidate of the presidential elections. On the other hand, Prabowo has been running a campaign for quite some time. But Jokowi was only announced candidacy in March, and officially nominated in May. And then elections in July. Early July. So you can imagine, that’s one. Two, good and bad. Why it’s good and bad? Volunteers is massive. Really massive. In the numbers of millions across Indonesia. These are true volunteers, unpaid and because this is volunteer work, often this is hard to structure organizations. So I often said, this is organized but not structured. Now, we often associate organization with structure. If there is no structure then it’s not organized. Well it is not always. Crowd has its own logic, and crowd often organized crowd – doesn’t mean they’re structured. So what is damaging is our campaign is more on the black campaign instead of the organizations… and the black campaign has infiltrated so many places. We’re glad to counter that ’cause they did attack too early, so we have time to reverse the perceptions.

MARIA RESSA: Connected to that, and the role of social media in these campaigns. This is the first social media election in Indonesia. How do you look at social media? Positive? Negative?

ANIES BASWEDAN: It is positive. On the one hand, expression is very free, on the other hand it is often difficult to verify– opinion, facts, through that. But it has become a new battleground for the campaign. And Indonesians were so exposed to social media nowadays. Their engagement is very important. Our teams are also working on this, and in terms of size I think we are dominated in terms of size. In terms of message, our message often not that focused. Because so many messages being anchored by so many different funded groups. But I believe it has its own segments that is listening, that is having conversations, but in general… this is perhaps the first elections where social media played an important role, much more important than before.

MARIA RESSA: Campaigns ended over the weekend and you had a very packed week, with the concert, the debate. Who won the debate?

ANIES BASWEDAN: I think last debate was a great debate for Jokowi-JK It was a, I would say, a slam dunk. And part of the slam dunk is because number one, the issue is environment, issue is food security, and those are issues so dear to Jokowi. He’s a forest… he’s a graduate of a forestry department. But JK has been spending so much of his time about managing energy, which was a topic too. So that was their strength, and in fact, there were questions being raised by Prabowo-Hatta, who were being corrected by JK and Jokowi because these are questions that are basically wrong. Behind – what’s the understanding of Prabowo-Hatta behind the good rhetorics they have. Because that’s – if the basics was not right, how could you think of the something for their… So their debate was very good. Yes, we’re very busy, but Jokowi in the last days of the campaign, was travelling in western Java, I was packed but we’re very happy we campaign in the districts where survey shows Prabowo is quite strong. So we penetrated to the hardcore of Prabowo’s supporters. And we’re hoping to convert. And I’m quite positive. If you travel, you kinda sense where he is really so part of the people. He doesn’t travel with – he basically travels with a small minivan. And then along the road that he’s passing by, hundreds, thousands people on the sides, waving, handshaking, so our schedule has been a bit messed up because travel time is really depend on everywhere we go. Thousands of people want to meet him. There is a feeling that in the general public, he’s one of us. And suddenly, one of us is being a candidate, not because he’s a movie star, not because he’s a great singer, but because he works hard, he served as mayor of a small city, become a governor, and now a candidate. The narrative is an inspiration to so many common Indonesians that want to see their children be successful, and they want to see the country of hope.

MARIA RESSA: Do you think you stopped Probowo’s momentum? Will you win on Wednesday?

ANIES BASWEDAN: I think so. I think we had the rebound that started last week. We had the rebound and the feeling of, yes, Jokowi finally, Jokowi. Even the hashtag in social media. I hear Jokowi… finally, I voted for Jokowi. The type of message resonates very strong, and often the educated groups, the middle class, is not only about Jokowi-JK or Jokowi and Prabowo, but also about, they’re my peers… So checking around is also a fact that.. and when they look around and wow, my friends are actually trusting their vote for Jokowi, I’ll do the same. So the momentum is picking up.

MARIA RESSA: One of the interesting things, I mean when people vote, it won’t be a rational vote. People are voting emotionally. And that brings us to form vs. substance right? Again, analysts say Jokowi has form, Jokowi has the form.. but, sorry, Jokowi has the substance, but perhaps not the form. And that final debate may have shown that he has the form… is it enough? I guess, the humility that he had seem to have worked against him during the campaign until this final debate… is that accurate?

ANIES BASWEDAN: Not really, in the last debate, in the last debate when Jokowi and JK were able to sort of show that they know exactly what they’re talking about and convince people that the delivery of the message is as firm as the other side. Often the other side is firm in the way of delivering message. Jokowi is very strong on the substance. The delivery is very polite, very humble, and the last debate I think was still polite, was still humble, but shows strength and firmness. And I think it’s… and the timing is also good because it’s still Ramadan and people are still up and it was a weekend that it was Saturday. Usually the debate is on Sunday. So people stay up and it was right before a football match in the World Cup. So go to the debate… then watch the World Cup after the debate. So it was, you know, God works in mysterious ways. The time, the momentum is there.

MARIA RESSA: Is this Indonesia’s Obama moment?

ANIES BASWEDAN: This is Indonesia’s Jokowi moment. And I think we have seen someone who was not predicted that one day could serve as president, be in that position. And this is what I said to so many people – we need a president that every parent would say – “Be like him.” We don’t want parents to say, “Son, my children, don’t be like him.” Because he has committed something that is not acceptable. Moral high ground, yes, very important. This is not only for solving problems, creating good policies – you are serving as a symbol of the nation. Your record must show the record of the nation. And it must reflect the pride of the nation. We need someone that is out there, and makes everyone feel – “That’s the guy.”

MARIA RESSA: Jokowi’s been compared to Obama outside of Indonesia. At the same time in Indonesia, at the low point in the campaign he was compared to Gusdur. Someone who had the moral high ground but in the end was ineffective leader. Can Jokowi do better than that? Can he provide both moral suasion, and the moral compass, and at the same time be an effective leader?

ANIES BASWEDAN: Jokowi started being an effective leader before he is carrying the flagship of moral high ground. So he wasn’t working the other way around. He was a successful mayor. Reelected by more than 90 percent of the people, which is impressive. And then people see his view, people see his attitude, people see the way he organize his administrations. Then he become the flag of the high moral ground. And that’s the difference compared to many opposition leaders across the globe that started his movement that was calling for change in the government. For change in government, the high moral ground with very minimum administrative experience… it happened in Africa, it happened in Asia, it happened in South America. It happened also in Southeast Asia. But this is the other way around. And I think that’s why the youth is so engaged, because they are not seeing him simply as someone who’s decent, harmless, but also someone who gets things done.

MARIA RESSA: So why did Probowo do so well in the campaign?

ANIES BASWEDAN: Because it is a 2-candidate… had the candidates only were 3 I think the story would have been different. Because it’s only two, so you just have to choose if you’re not comfortable with A, then you choose B. And if a large proportion says “I’m not comfortable with both, then there are alternatives. And I think that’s what creates…

MARIA RESSA: What about realpolitik, for Jokowi, I mean, certainly PDI-P, Jokowi could have come into this campaign period with stronger coalitions. We’re told that the Democrat Party, Bambang Yudhoyono, could have joined. There were many other instances where alliances could have been forged with Golkar, for example. Could the realpolitik have been handled better?

ANIES BASWEDAN: Actually this comes back to the issue of firmness. How firm are you with you with your idea of combating corruption? How firm are you if you serve firm and you say, my party is for respect for pluralisms. Respect for diversity. Then you only allow those who respect diversity to be in your coalitions. But it’s on the one hand that has the respect for diversity. On the other hand we welcome anybody including those who are disrespecting diversity. Where is the firmness? If on the one hand you said… we are going to fight corruption. We’re not going to welcome anybody. But on the other hand you’re welcoming anybody with any track record. Where is the firmness? On the other hand, the Jokowi campaign team has been very careful on that. There’s no perfect human being, for sure. But being selective is important, and I think being selective in a nomination stage is critical.

MARIA RESSA: So if you’re saying this was a choice that you wanted to make sure that you stuck to the principles of what you were running for..?

ANIES BASWEDAN: Because this is not a campaign in the House of Representatives that we need more than 50 percent of the members of the House to vote. But what we need is a 20 or 25 percent minimum requirement to nominate.. then it’s the entire, the electorate, the center population that’s going to vote. Now, that’s why I always said this is to nominate once the president is elected, once election is over, I believe the form would change.. after the election is over, and they will be entering a new stage managing Jakarta politics that is managing parties, managing all interest groups and everything. That’s quite different, and there is no guarantee, and it has been proven in the past that if a party gets 5 percent of support in the elections, and the party decided to support a candidate then all the 5 percent will follow. There is no guarantee. And in fact there is no correlation between who you voted for the legislatures, and how they voted in the president’s elections. So personalities matter a lot. Because at the end of the day it’s about electing individuals. And that’s why for Jokowi, it is much better to have a slim but credible parties to be part of the nominating parties.

MARIA RESSA: So you were willing to actually take the risk to maintain the principles, moving into elections?

ANIES BESWADAN: Isn’t it what Indonesia needs today?

MARIA RESSA: Interesting. Fantastic. Let me ask you about the ghosts of the past, I mean, again in many instances you still have Suharto and Megawati. It is 1998 all over again. You have a Prabowo, coming from the former… with many of the figures from the old New Order, the New Order of the past, and you have Jokowi, yes a break from the past but yet his mentor, he has probably acknowledged.. Megawati plays a very strong role in the way Jokowi moved into this campaign. What role? Have we moved away from the past? How do you look at this?

ANIES BASWEDAN: I think learning from the lessons in 2012, when Jokowi was elected governor of Jakarta. He has been showing his loyalty to the people of Jakarta. But then anything else… in fact in 2012 he was associated as puppet of Prabowo..  Prabowo was also the one helped to get him to Jakarta. And Prabowo team was nominating his runningmates. Tempo, one of the leading news magazines in Indonesia, had a cover of one face – half Prabowo, half Jokowi.

MARIA RESSA: Interesting

ANIES BASWEDAN: And the view that he was a puppet now nobody remembers! Not only that it was wrong, but very minimal would remember. There was a time when Jokowi was associated, that he would be under the influence of Prabowo. Wrong. And I think next time they’ll be wrong again.

MARIA RESSA: Interesting. Well, what will happen on Wednesday?

ANIES BASWEDAN: If I knew I would’ve been a billionaire. But if I can predict, given what we have seen in the past, with God willing, Jokowi will win. And the margin may not be that big, but our prediction’s around 6, 8, some sort of optimistic to say up to 12 percent. But what we would like to see and would like to ensure to take place is clean and dignified electoral process. That’s what we need, the Jokowi and the team do not have control of the bureaucracy. Do not have control of any security apparatus. None whatsoever. So what we are concerned with is intervention. If there is no intervention, there is no cooking of any kind. We will see Jokowi coming out of the July 9th, bringing victory.

MARIA RESSA: If the margin is so small, what are the possibilities of violence?

ANIES BASWEDAN: I think the Indonesian police and armed forces will never tolerate any violence, especially after elections. We have had elections in so many places every five years. And in general, it has been peaceful elections. So I think the Indonesian police and armed forces are very prepared.

MARIA RESSA: But his contender, Jokowi’s contender is a man who’s been accused in the past of engineering violence. Is this a concern?

ANIES BASWEDAN: That even makes the reasons much stronger for Jokowi to be elected. We need no more fear in this republic. If on the election day you are threatened with fear, you will be threatened with fear for the next five years. Don’t give up. That makes us an even stronger case. And for Prabowo… has no intention whatsover to actually inflict curse. No. I think he wanted to prove that he is not what the public thought. I view him as a patriot, I view him as someone who loves the nation, and I view him as someone who wants to make a change for Indonesia. I don’t think, and I believe this, I don’t think that Prabowo ever intend to actually inflict curse. That is the picture he wanted to avoid. It doesn’t.. imagine if that happens history in Indonesia will write him not as a good ending, because if he loses this elections, that’s it, it’s over.

MARIA RESSA: Can he control his allies?

ANIES BASWEDAN: if he is a firm leader, he’s able to control his ally. And I believe he has been saying that he’s firm, so he should be able to control his allies.

MARIA RESSA: If Jokowi wins, what are the challenges ahead for a Jokowi presidency?

ANIES BASWEDAN: Fortunately this is a one-round election. So we have about 3 months to prepare before taking over the office.

MARIA RESSA: And what will be the priorities? What will be the challenges ahead, the opportunities for Indonesia?

ANIES BASWEDAN: As soon as he’s elected, I think what the type of change we need is that we’re entering that stage, we’re entering new Indonesia, we’re entering with a good guy, who’s in charge, and a good guy will still together. And I think that’ feeling is priceless. Programs, strategy, implementation will take time. But the change of atmosphere can take the place immediately. And the change in atmosphere will change people, it will translate into hope, it will translate into willingness to work hard, it will translate into time going to work with a different level of integrity. Why? Because one is also bringing in integrity. This is the type of change the nation needs. And that’s why the victory on the 9th is not about Jokowi being president. If’s about the nation entering a new phase.

MARIA RESSA: if he wins he’s going to be shouldering all the problems as well, the economy is actually stuttering, it needs a boost, you have ASEAN economic communities slated to begin in 2015, you have new threats, you have Islamist terrorists, globally that’s gaining more ground, many of them fighting in Syria will come home including to Indonesia, what threats do you see are the most important to deal with, and what kind of policy will the Jokowi government have for ASEAN?

ANIES BASWEDAN: One of the biggest threat is the absence of good governance. That is one of the biggest threats. Look. When you said there’s violence, yes violence is there but why is violence there? Is it because intolerance is common? intolerance has been there for hundreds of years, across the globe. But why does it take place today? Why does it take place in certain places? Often, because violence goes unpunished. That’s why it repeats. If you tolerate violence it goes unpunished. It will repeat while it’s unpunished. Because if you punish, the system punishes you. You are not rewarded for enforcing the law. You can be demoted instead of promoted. And that needs a change. So a new leader that says, “Good governance will be there,” be it law enforcement, be it trade, be it international relations, be it internal affairs… anything. Once good governance is intact then you start to see what the law and the book and how it’s been practiced in the field. You see consistencies. What we have in Indonesia is you look at our law and the book everything is good. But if you look at the implementation, what’s the problem in… Why? Because the bureaucracy. And when I say bureaucracy it’s not only civilian bureaucracy. It’s both aspects so that is our biggest threat, and democracy often forgets that what makes things work is not only those who are kept elected. But those who are working with the black box of bureaucracy. And we need to fix that. So of all of the challenges, fixing the machinery of our government is the biggest challenge, and it’s big. And we can fix that. Last night I had a meeting. Well, it was just an Iftar gathering, someone came and said, “You know, if I didn’t work for Jokowi, the governor of Jakarta I would’ve worked for the other guy. Because he’s not from Jakarta. We needed someone who understood Jakarta. And that was actually set. And then he became a governor I was skeptical, until I come to a sub-district office to process my ID. And then at that time I was preparing pocket money for the guy because that’s usually the approach, and you get, nope, we’re not going to accept money. You’re not gonna accept money? No, after all, nobody wants to touch this you know why? I get demoted. Some of my friends were even fired because of that.” And he was surprised. And he checked with the people – so that is the feeling. That is the environment. That’s the type of change. If we can start to restore trust in our government, in our bureaucracy, then we have a better functioning democracy. And that’s also how we control peace. Peace is not about the absence of violence. Peace is also the presence of the feeling of justice. And how do you show the feeling of justice? By giving equal treatment to all. But how do you give equal treatment to all? By having a functioning bureaucracy. Again. So… with all those major challenges across different fields, at the end of the day when Jokowi has in his hand to control is this large bureaucracy. That’s definitely the police force, the administrations, the armed force, that’s in control. If that can be fixed, it sends a different message to the nation.

MARIA RESSA: So internally this is an amazing goal. But foreign policy-wise, what will drive foreign policy in terms of diplomatic relations, looking at the threats that are out there…

ANIES BASWEDAN: I think Indonesia will continue to retain its major role in ASEAN and also in the globe. We’ll definitely continue. But the strength of every international relations is depend on its domestic power. If it’s in domestic power you’re not able to deliver, you lose credibility. It’s a message you send around the globe. You will have to have your homework done well. I think that’s where the strength of Jokowi… So, what’s good will be continued, and we may need to work on calibrating between trade and diplomacy as many nations are now doing because much of international relations is about business or economic relationship. I think we’ll have to work on calibrating that, but other than that we need to fix our homework.

MARIA RESSA: And last policy question is on economics… what are the main things, obviously the fuel subsidy was discussed in the debates, but not directly answered. It’s been something that’s been hanging over Indonesia since the time of Suharto. What do you plan to do to make this –– [00:46:52.06] Anies: Jokowi plans, number 1, is on the issue of energy and infrastructure.Those are the big issues. On the issue of energy for example, part of the large portions of the subsidy goes to electric generating activities. So Indonesian power plants are also using subsidized fuel. And that is an issue. And the idea is to convert that. Into coal base. Or natural gas base. Instead of using fuel. And stop the subsidy. We still need to retain subsidy to the low income families because they are also using fuels for that. But we don’t meet to provide subsidies for electric-generating plants. That, and the conversion of debt is a priority. We only associate subsidy with regard to the people, with regard to the middle class. Actually, 3rd. Is going to a power plant so we need to convert that. Once we get this converted, we get to do this number 2, efficiency in the budget needs to be managed in the more efficient way. And if it’s done, we can save lot of money.

MARIA RESSA: Okay, fantastic. It is the last few days. It is supposed to be a quiet period, it’s not quiet on social media that’s for sure. Your last thoughts, heading into this historic elections?

ANIES BASWEDAN: Yes, When the law was written, social media wasn’t that active yet, but I think in general, Indonesians have experienced elections so many times. This is nothing new. We’ve had this many, many times. We went the polls, we voted, and then we went home, waited and listened to the results and life moves on. So yes, this is a very brief peaceful days. Social media is active, but that’s life. That’s the new Indonesia. After this, once election is over, I believe, the polarization we’ve seen in the last few months will melt down, and we’ll come back as one nation facing the challenges together with the new leadership.

MARIA RESSA: Fantastic. Thank you so much! We’ve been speaking with Anies Baswedan, he is the spokesman for the Jokowi campaign, very optimistic about the election days. Stay tuned, 187 million voters on Wednesday choosing the path for Indonesia. I’m Maria Ressa. Thank you for joining us.